Ep.19/ Infertility Disparities: Unpacking Racialized Perspectives with Swetha Armruthur Khan
EP.19/ Infertility Disparities: Unpacking Racialized Perspectives with Swetha Armruthur Khan
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Note: This transcription has been created with a help of an AI thus errors and mistranscriptions may be present.
Dr. Jill Baker: [00:00:00] Hello? Maternal Health 911? What's your
Swetha: emergency?
Dr. Jill Baker: Hi, I'm Dr. Jo Baker. I'm a wife, a mother, a community health scholar, an executive director, and a fertility coach. More than 12 years ago, I was on my own infertility journey. Since then, I've made it my personal mission to help anyone who is on their own journey. to become a parent as well as shed light on infertility and maternal health experiences of BIPOC women and couples.
Now, let's begin this week's episode of Maternal Health 911.
Greetings Maternal Health 911 [00:01:00] listeners. This is your beloved host, Dr. Jill Baker, and I'm very excited today about this particular episode, and I think a lot of you are going to relate a lot to the conversation that I'm going to have today. So as you all know, part of my show is to Try to bring awareness to different infertility and maternal health stories from women of color and try to shine a light as much as possible.
And I was very, I'll say fortunate when I spoke to this particular sister. And I was, telling her about this show, I think like maybe three months ago or so, and we were hanging out in DC with one of my best friends Lakshmi Natarajan Amruthar so shout out to Manju, um, [00:02:00] who always just Connects me with the most amazing people.
And that's her role. I think we all have people in our lives who just are connectors and watch me. Manju is one of those people. So she was like, Jill, yeah tell my sister in law about your show. And I was like, okay, yeah, it's about maternal health disparities and infertility experiences.
And the first thing she said was if you want, I'll share my experience. And I was like, you will? And she said, yes! And it just, I, just my heart just And I just felt so I was just excited. I was like, all right, let's make just make it happen. And here we are two months later. So today I have my new friend and sister, the courageous Ms.
Swetha Amuthar, who yeah, actually we'll talk about this later. In three weeks, I think three weeks we're going to be in Portugal together. For an Earl girl, all girls trip. And I'm so excited. And I think[00:03:00] Lakshmi is planning this trip. It's going to be all women. Most of us, I think our mothers and anytime mothers get together alone, without our children is a beautiful thing and a necessary thing.
And I know there are a lot of people who are like, you're going to travel without your children. Yes. We are going to travel without our Children, and I will say for me personally, and this is not what we're talking about at all today, but being a mother for me, the traveling has been one of it's been self care for me, especially since I've become a mother and everyone you will, being a motherhood being a mother.
It comes with so much judgment, and there are people who are like, I would never travel without my kids. Okay. Okay. And you can be one of those people and you can be that mother. And I have no judgment towards that. But myself and a lot of my sister friends [00:04:00] are really big on traveling alone. At least, for me, it would be at least, once a year.
And I'm just so thankful when Ashmi said, okay, I'm going to plan a trip to Portugal. Okay. What do I, when? Let me know and it's going to be great. And there's going to be so many. The other great thing, beautiful thing is that you're going to, there's going to, it's just a diverse amount of women that are going, like I looked at our pictures cause Lakshmi put together this collage of all of our social media pictures.
And there's all these faces of beautiful women, all colors. All ages, all backgrounds. And I'm like, this is how real diversity happens. Put people together. You put some mothers together and say, you want to go on a trip? And this is what happens. And this is how you, you start also having. Real friendships with people with having these [00:05:00] experiences that we'll all, remember this trip, for the rest of our lives.
And one thing we will talk about is our children and how did we get here? And so today. I'm so excited to have a Swetha here today. And she is a very passionate advocate about women's health. So that was something that the two of us had in common, and we connected on that very quickly.
And by the age of 34, she had gone through multiple miscarriages and a couple more after giving birth to her daughter when she was 35. And being of South Asian descent, she has found this subject to be taboo in the community, and has often emotionally struggled to cope with the societal pressures.
She is extremely vocal about her experiences and hopes to support women's emotional well being by sharing her journey. And that's another thing that we both have in common.[00:06:00] If we don't talk about our issues or our specific issues, The stigma is going to continue. And I know that there are women out there who are going to listen to this and say, oh my gosh, that happened to me, or this is.
This is this may happen to me. And what can I do? Swetha Amruthar is also an experienced customer success professional who specializes in customer relationships in SAAS and security industries specializing in startups. She has extensive management consulting background with a BA in economics. And in her free time, Swetha enjoys traveling the world with her family, which we were just talking about.
So without further ado, Maternal Health 911 Family, please welcome Swetha to the show officially today. Thanks, Jill.
Swetha: Really appreciate you having me on the show [00:07:00] today. And again, shout out to Lakshmi Manju Amruthar, my Sister in law for introducing us. Again, like you said, she is definitely a connector. One of those women that you just hang out with and your social circle just Keeps growing and growing.
So thanks to her and really, thank you for having me on this show. And it was great meeting you and we will definitely be having a blast in Portugal. We're
Dr. Jill Baker: going to have, we're going to have so much fun. Yes, we are going to, we're going to have a blast. The other thing is luxury and I met at Penn at UPenn, but she You probably know this, but she was a transfer student.
So she transferred her sophomore year to Penn. And yeah, she was one of the first, I think I was one of the first women that met her cause her friend, Jonathan from high school, but. Shout out to Johnny introduced us and then we just bonded quickly right away and like that and then that was the end of that.
Swetha: I totally [00:08:00] enjoyed hearing all your stories when we were all hanging out the other night and it was just really great. And again, it's great to meet you. Thanks for having me on the show. And I just, again, I hope this is just first conversation we're going to be having. Yes. Here's the many more, right?
Dr. Jill Baker: And the infertility, infertility among women of color is so complex. And just so the listeners know if you didn't know, everyone, infertility affects 10 percent of women between the ages of 15 and 44. And in the United States, about 7. 4 million women and their partners are affected by fertility related issues.
So I, I think for me, one of, one of the things that I think is I think it's starting to shift a little bit, but I would love your perspective on it is Do you think that people are becoming more aware and open to this reality that [00:09:00] infertility is a real thing? I
Swetha: do believe so because more people I speak with are more vocal about it if they're struggling at the moment.
And I think that's partially because of access to information, right? They're able to access resources that our parents, their generations and the ones before them were not able to get to. And I also think, a big factor is the socioeconomic status, right? It depends on the person, what kind of insurance do they have, who their doctor is, if they're able to afford this care and the services at that point, I think they're more open to getting in touch with those.
Experts to understand what they need to do next. And they're more vocal about it. But I think if you can, if you go and talk to individuals that don't necessarily have those resources, they're probably won't tell you exactly physically, emotionally, and mentally as they struggle, because it's still a huge.[00:10:00]
The taboo, there's so much stigma around it. And let's be honest, right? Like I almost feel like in this day and age or anytime a woman is judged by her. If she can
Dr. Jill Baker: procreate, right? Yeah, let's keep it real. Let's keep it real. Can she pop those babies out? I don't know. I don't know if you have been or have watched Queen Charlotte on on Netflix.
Swetha: But, I have this love and hate relationship with TV in general. Because I can't commit to
Dr. Jill Baker: long shows. I feel you and there's nothing wrong with that at all. As I've gotten older I do, I have certain shows that I watch. And the, like This Is Us was my show.
Now This Is Us is gone. Insecure. I used to watch scan, scandal. So Queen Charlotte, a lot of people told me to watch it. I've never even watched Bridgerton on Netflix, which I know a million people have watched and I didn't watch it. But then people were like you can watch Queen [00:11:00] Charlotte and it doesn't matter if you didn't watch Bridgerton.
Okay. Her only goal, her only thing that she needed to do, all the emphasis was for her to procreate. As many babies. That was it. Nobody cared about anything else that this queen did, whether she was happy. Are you going to procreate? When? How long? Okay, get it done. And then do it again. And again. And again.
And again. And she went on to have 15 children. That's
Swetha: 15. I mean my maternal grandmother had eight and my paternal had six, right? So that was the norm, right? So I guess you know I don't even know In this day and age to think about having eight kids Right now, if you can do it [00:12:00] great, but I just feel like there's so many factors in play that make it that much more challenging.
Dr. Jill Baker: I'm just wondering if there is a part of women that not, and not all women, because I have friends who never wanted to have kids and I've had friends who. Said it, meant it, and have acted accordingly and haven't changed. I have friends who said they didn't want to become mothers, then they changed their minds, and then they had kids.
I had friends that thought they would never want to be mothers, then they had kids, now they will. So it's all different experiences, but I think there's a part of us that still feels that, if, and if you know you want to have a baby and you can't, that you are not, A full woman. I know for me when we were going through our infertility for two plus years, I felt I was like I don't feel like a real woman because I can't do one.
What I want to do be. I [00:13:00] can't get a, I can't have a, get a baby inside of me, no matter, and it was so hard. That's
Swetha: really hard. I completely agree because for me, I'm one of three kids, right? I'm the middle child. So I always wanted to have three. And then for me, it was like, okay, we'll get married.
I got married at 30. And I'm like, okay, my husband, let's start trying. Cause you know, I'm 30 or 31. So this is perfect time to have three kids if we want to stagger them out. And then I was like, wait, after I think my fourth or fifth miscarriage, I'm like, what is wrong with me? I'm like, I feel like a failure because I'm not able to, I was able to get pregnant, but for me, it was keeping that pregnancy viable.
That was a hard part. All my miscarriages were between like eight to 10. So it was just like, it's like a very hard emotional space too. Cause your body is just changing with all those. Hormones that you don't even know or can't control. And then all of a sudden [00:14:00] you're, one day you wake up and poof, that's gone and your body has to adjust again.
So emotionally, mentally, you're all over the place and it's just, I just never realized nobody wants to talk about it. So many friends or like some family or members that have gone through it. They wouldn't open up until I was, I went up and I said, Hey, listen, Oh my God, I had a miscarriage and all of a sudden, Oh, don't worry.
You'll be fine. I had this too. I'm like why don't we talk about it? Why don't we?
So I think. It's just to your point. I, it's a struggle. It's a journey. And then I think already you individually feel like you're failing at something. And then I don't think the people or the society helps to pull you out of that.
Other than, because it's so taboo, it's just more piling on. So all of a sudden you're like, What is the it's almost like you have your purpose on in life attached to that one. Yes, [00:15:00] right And it shouldn't be that way
Dr. Jill Baker: right and you're like I'm trying to ship, you know shift the expectations and how I thought this was gonna be but I know it's interesting because our kind of trajectories are similar because I think I started trying to get pregnant around maybe 29 or 30 But I was like at the end of my doctorate program, but I didn't think that it would take, I didn't think it was going to take that.
I did not think that it was going to take that long. And then fast forward to, yeah, two and a half years, two years and we still weren't pregnant. But I think it was that, okay, the timing, you got married, did this, started my career. Then boom check. And then, okay, let's get the party started and.
Let's get to it. Yeah. Let's get to it. And then, no, not quite. Not quite.
Swetha: But sometimes I sit down and I think, I'm like, who made these rules? Or who said this is the norm? Or this is [00:16:00] what, you should go through or this is how your life should be. And it's just commonly accepted.
I'm like, why can't we just break that taboo? And if we do, why do you get stigmatized into society by saying, hey, listen. That's not how you're supposed to be. Just like you said you have friends that don't want kids. Why is that not normalized? Some people don't want kids, and that's perfectly fine.
So I just, yeah, I still struggle to this day about all these like, norms. That's just to me
Dr. Jill Baker: makes no sense. And then part of it's why am I beating myself up so much? Yes.
Swetha: That's really hard, right? Who can I reach out to And I think that's one thing I will definitely tell you I learned through my whole journey.
I didn't reach out to a psych, therapist, right? I wish I had a therapist. Because for me, I have such a big core group of [00:17:00] family and, friends that have always been supportive. My husband, I have to give him a shout out, right? Was the best. Through the entire process.
Never made me feel like I was inadequate. Always tried to look at the positives and said, Hey listen, there's always a way out. We can work through it. I could have never gotten to Oh, I love that. I love it. Yeah. He was awesome. And then my siblings, my mom, all of them. But one of the things like I didn't recognize then, which I realize now, is they are also grieving with you.
Whether or not they're grieving the miscarriages, but they're grieving for their friend, they're grieving for their sibling or their daughters or whoever they may be. So they have to process their emotions as well. So when I am borrowing on their strength over and over, it's a drain for them as well.
Dr. Jill Baker: That's a
Swetha: good point. So I think having that outside therapist. Can give you that,[00:18:00] a new like outlook right without necessarily being so emotionally involved, right? They can give you more of an objective outlook. And I feel like It's easier now when I talk to my therapist because it's a strange, I'm not, initially it was a stranger.
Sometimes you open up more to a stranger than do to your
Dr. Jill Baker: loved
Swetha: ones because you're walking on eggshells because you don't want to hurt your, loved ones, right? By talking about what you're going through. So I think having that third person objective is amazing. And again, I wish I had done that through my Journey, but like I, like you say, better late than never.
Dr. Jill Baker: Exactly, exactly. So can you, so we touched upon your, your miscarriages. Can you give us a timeline of, when this, when that started and how many years went, went by [00:19:00] before you made the decision to a seek fertility clinic or treatment.
Swetha: Sure. So I started prac, I started, we started trying when I turned 30, right? So from 30 to thir the age 34, I would pro, I probably had about five mis, four to five miscarriage. I feel like I've lost count. That sounds so sad, but I've completely lost count at this point. And again, in 2015, December is when I had my child.
So we started seeing a fertility specialist at, around the end of December, I would say 2014, um, because my OB was great. Dr. Fernandez, it's, and again, I tried, he is Spanish descent as well. So amazing. It was so good to me. And he suggested that, Hey, listen, this is, you're getting older.
If this is the path you really want to [00:20:00] go through. Why don't we try getting to under, the core of what the problem is and let's send you to a fertility specialist. And in this area, shady grove is really well known.
Dr. Jill Baker: Yeah. Shady Grove. Okay. So
Swetha: you went to shady grove. Yeah. And then Dr. Fernandez had a lot of friends that he worked with as well
Dr. Jill Baker: there.
Ah, so he suggested it and then he had, that's great. When that. It's amazing when that happens, you feel like I can trust more of what you're saying.
Swetha: Exactly. Yeah. Because that connection
Dr. Jill Baker: is important.
Swetha: And so I actually chose and we talked it over and we chose a South Asian, right? She was Indian descent at the fertility doctor.
The reason why is again, back to what I was going through emotionally. I knew for a fact that she would understand. The pressure, the outside pressures, mainly other than, what I was putting on myself she was able to [00:21:00] walk me through it, understand where I was coming from. So we went and my husband got tested.
I got tested. And again, That taboo, right? Oh, there's something wrong with you. Not me kind of thing, right? Was never in play with Subaru. Subaru was like, let's go, let's get this done, right? Let's go get tested. What do we need to do? So we did, we went and got the test, we got our ultrasound and what they decided was, Hey, let's put you on Clomid so we can get started on the whole process.
And right before I took my first dose of Clomid, I knew I was pregnant. I, and in this, again, I, this gets a little emotional for me here. Because I know you remember, right? Lakshmi, my sister in law, she was Pregnant. We were doing her baby shower in January. Yes. Yeah, I was. Yeah. So you remember like in our culture where all the women come up, they put the [00:22:00] bangles to bless the mother to be.
And she picked me and one of her, remember, I don't know if you remember, we sat up and then all the women came and blessed me with the bangles. I still have those bangles to this day because. Literally two months after that, two, two and a half months after that, I got pregnant and that is the only pregnancy that has stuck.
And I was in Miami holding my first niece, Shaila, when I found out I was pregnant. I know. It's yeah. And I still tell her parents that all the time.
Dr. Jill Baker: We will call that missing call
Swetha: that Mr. Right.
Dr. Jill Baker: It was a, but it was supposed to happen that way.
Swetha: Exactly. So Clomid didn't even take that, got pregnant and I was, Oh my God, I was on eggshells the first three [00:23:00] months.
Yeah. Yes. Yeah. So that was very taxing emotionally. Like I had my, I had everybody on speed dial, my sister, my husband, just like even a little thing. And they were like, you need to calm down. You need to calm down. And I still remember my nine scan is it was a sonogram and the doctor was like, we can't find a heartbeat.
Oh gosh. In my heart. Yes. So he's go down to the ultrasound, we'll get a, a vaginal ultrasound done, just to make sure and then take the next steps. So I'm sitting there sobbing on the ultrasound bed. My mom is on the phone speaker talking to my husband and she is sobbing. literally maybe 10 seconds into the scan, they found a heartbeat.
And then I was like, wait, this is some, even if you're religious, spiritual, whatever it may be, it's just it was meant to be right. And then after that, like the entire pregnancy, I was super healthy, [00:24:00] thought about what I needed to eat in terms of what, how much of everything I needed to get and being a vegetarian protein is important.
And I had the best maternal fetal doctor because I was high risk at that point, right? Age.
Dr. Jill Baker: Because of your age. That's
Swetha: right. And miscarriages and the history.
Dr. Jill Baker: I was both. Yes. Me too. Both times. Both pregnancies, I was high risk. Hello, Maternal Health 9 1 1 listeners. If you are enjoying this video.
episode. And if you happen to be going through infertility or someone who might be and who needs support, I want to announce to all of you that I am offering fertility and infertility coaching services. And I have a very limited amount of spots, but for those of you who are interested, please visit my [00:25:00] website, www.
drjoebaker. com, or you can email me at drjoebaker at gmail. com about your interest, and we can figure out a time to book a consult call would love to hear from you. And help in any way that I can.
Okay, so let me ask you this question. Did you feel that they, did they feel did you feel very ancient or old while you were pregnant with your daughter? Not at all. Okay. I just know that for me especially with Amari, I just kept, everyone kept saying, Oh my God, just geriatric pregnancy.
And you have to be so careful. I'm like, am I ancient? I'm not ancient. I know [00:26:00] I'm advanced maternal age. But, I think it has to do a lot. Leave me alone. I think it has to do a lot
Swetha: with the team you're working with as well, right? Yeah, yes. My doctor, her name was Dr. Okoma, and she was from Nigeria. Oh my god.
She knew she understood we can shout out to Dr. Coma. Yeah, no, she was amazing. And the whole team was great. And there were times when I was like, going into more, like every time you go into a doctor's office, I'm sitting there and then you look around and they're all these.
Younger people that are pregnant, and you're just like, wait a minute, am I
Dr. Jill Baker: the only older one? Yes.
Swetha: I, oh yeah. And
Dr. Jill Baker: then, oh my,
Swetha: I don't understand. But did you have to get like extra scans, extra? Yes. Yes. Yep. And I'm like, why is this being prescribed? But, again, rather than feeling that I wasn't made to feel that way.
So I was a little, I [00:27:00] was more content to me. I just needed it to be healthy. I just needed to, get past the finish line. No, the team was great. And it's just, I healthy, I walked every day, like I was super active. But starting month eight though was hell like. I came down, this is funny, right?
Yeah. In my head, I'm like, I've only gained seven pounds until now. Yay. Cause I couldn't, I didn't want to risk it. Month eight, I was hungry. It was two o'clock in the morning. I was starving. So I come down and I'm like, I cannot eat junk food, but I can eat a teaspoon of peanut butter because it has all the protein.
And I eat it. And then I'm just like standing there by the kit, by the stove and I'm just, I'm not moving. And then. I'm like, I, and I had no morning sickness. I'd never thrown up. No issues, right? And then I just screamed Subaru's name and literally vomited. Okay. And then I started, I had so much pain [00:28:00] with the vomit acid reflux.
And he's okay, let's take you to the ER. My gallbladder had collapsed because of the gallstones from Oh my goodness. Oh, it was awful. It was so bad and cause they couldn't go in and take it out cause I'm so far advanced. So from month eight until she was, Rima was born. I was in the hospital on morphine drip.
Wow. Gosh. And they were like, we cannot have a morphine baby. I'm like, no, I cannot have a morphine baby. So it was just really it was great because the team was great. Everybody made me feel good. And my family would visit all the time, being stuck in a bed for a month or yeah.
Yeah. Close to a month is no fun, everything went well until, we got to the. Rima being born, they were like, we're going to induce you. I'm like, okay, just lying there, after epidural [00:29:00] and wallow. And then she was like, Oh, something's wrong. I'm like, what do you mean something's wrong?
It's like the baby's heartbeat just totally crashed. And I'm like, what now? And they all come running in. She needs to do an emergency section. I'm like, let me just get her out already. Just get her out. Let her be healthy. And, everything went well, and when I held her, the only word I have to describe that feeling is content.
At that moment, I was content. I'm like, whatever happens after, I will deal with it. But right now, let me just hold her, let me just sleep for an hour with her, and I'm content.
Dr. Jill Baker: I love it. Yeah, I had to get induced, I got induced with the twins, and then they were not coming, and then I ended up having a C section too.
But yeah, similar to you. I was just like, just get these babies out of me. I just. But you don't hear those [00:30:00]
Swetha: stories a lot either, right? No. Everybody I talk to after, it's yeah, we went through that. We had an emergency
Dr. Jill Baker: situation too. A lot of people go through that and don't talk about it too.
Yeah, I'm
Swetha: like no one told me.
Dr. Jill Baker: Because you weren't thinking you were going to have a c section, right? No,
Swetha: we were supposed to have it be natural. Oh, and my mom and my sister, who just had her ACL surgery the day before Rima was born, they were going to come and my mom was going to be in the delivery room with me.
And all of a sudden, like after Rima was born, I see my mom wheeling my sister down the hallway at 3am to come see me and the baby. But yeah, it was
Dr. Jill Baker: just. I love it. I love it. Oh, and you only threw up. You only threw up one time. Okay. But then it was your gallbladder.
Swetha: I never had any morning sickness.
It was so weird. You're so lucky. Yeah. But then, I always kept thinking, I'm like, Is this not a going to be a viable pregnancy [00:31:00] because I'm not having morning sickness. Because everybody I know that's pregnant, right. Has morning sickness that had a healthy baby.
Dr. Jill Baker: See. We're on. Exactly. I didn't have morning sickness with Amari, but no one said at all.
At all. Oh, you didn't? No. With the twins. Yeah. Okay. Amari. No. And I only vomited once with Amari. Now, because I ate something pineapple, like a pineapple pancake, and I was like maybe he doesn't like pineapple but I no morning sickness. That was the only vomit. Yeah, it was pretty easy.
Yeah,
Swetha: I'm glad you have like easy friends.
Dr. Jill Baker: But that's good twins were not were there complete opposite but then I was like, Oh I had, a single mom being a singleton and it's different than half, have multiples but yeah, but there was just It was just a lot of emphasis because of I was 39.
I was 39 age. Yeah. Yeah. Did you Did you breastfeed? [00:32:00] Oh, yes. Rima? Okay. Was that your point? Was that your plan?
Swetha: I always wanted to. Yeah. And my sister in law is great about giving me all
Dr. Jill Baker: these tips. Oh, she's the queen. Yes. She's the queen. Yes. She was great. Her and my best friend, Tanya. They're the queens.
I'm like, I'm not trying to be all like me, too. And I think it was
Swetha: just, I went all out, right? And it was, oh, and that's the thing, too. The the nursing, the feet, nursing nurse, nursing doctor, whoever it is after I had Rima as soon as I had, I was so exhausted and pumped up with medication.
I was just laying there and Subaru actually gave her the formula, right? The first yeah, feed. She came in yelling at me, Joe, she was like, what, why you, do you not want a breast feed? I'm like, yes
Dr. Jill Baker: I do. But all the lactation nurse. Yeah. Yep.
Swetha: She's do you not want to breastfeed? I'm like, yes I do, but
Dr. Jill Baker: I am, I'm on [00:33:00] meds and you're tired, right?
Yes.
Swetha: And she was like, no, it doesn't matter. You have to put her on the breast. I'm like, what's the point, baby? Just please, I need to sleep.
Dr. Jill Baker: Good for you for pushing back. Yeah,
Swetha: because I got that input from Manju before. She's don't let anybody push you in a corner, right?
Exactly.
The next day, the lactation specialist that came in, she was so much nicer. She was actually Arab and she was like, no, you're good. You're good. Just do how much ever you feel comfortable with. And when you're tired. And then I just, after I came home, I was able to feed her. I just.
became a crazy like pumping machine. So I was feeding, pumping, and I had like stockpiles of breast milk. At the end of it, I had so much. After she stopped feeding, I probably could have fed her for another three months. Oh my gosh. That's one thing, ladies, if you have extra breast milk, I think there are [00:34:00] certain things you have to go through, but they are
Dr. Jill Baker: donatable.
You can donate. Yeah, you can donate your milk and you
Swetha: should. And I did. It was good. So I definitely did breastfeed and I enjoyed it. It was a great bonding moment or moments with Rima for I don't know, about a year and three months. I think I breastfed her at that point. I'm like, ouch, the teeth hurt.
Teeth hurt.
Dr. Jill Baker: It's time to stop. Exactly.
Swetha: I said, all right, fine. This time to, wean her off.
Dr. Jill Baker: Yeah. I, yeah, I breastfed Amari for six, about six months. buT then my milk stopped when I went back to work. I'm back to teaching. I was still teaching. Wasn't able to do it with the twins, but I'm glad that I got the experience of what it's like.
And it's such a commitment. It is. It's a huge commitment. And that can't be underplayed in any shape or
Swetha: form. It's a commitment emotionally [00:35:00] and physically. It takes a toll. Time. Yes, time is a Prep
Dr. Jill Baker: time. Getting comfortable time. Then it takes away from your time. Someone recommend, I don't know who it might've been.
Manju said to me get a show that you'll watch during pumping. Because you're going to be sitting for a long time. And I was like, Oh, okay. That's a good idea. And I started, so my pumping show was crazy enough parks and recreation. Oh, I love,
Swetha: okay. So I do love that show, although I haven't seen all the episodes.
I'd like to catch it once in a while here and there. Oh my God. That
Dr. Jill Baker: show was good. That's the show. And my husband had tried for years to get me to watch. So I came on at like season two or something like that. And I was like, Oh my God, this show was amazing. And my husband was like, I've been telling you to watch it.
I'm like okay, I'm watching it now. So here we go. It's my pumping show. I think for
Swetha: me, it was Law and Order
Dr. Jill Baker: SVU. Oh, that's another good one. And
Swetha: then just reading. I would read a lot. [00:36:00] And one thing I used to do is right after I fed Luma and she went to sleep, I'd pump an extra 10 minutes. on both to build my milk supply to a point where it's night.
Smart, yeah. Yeah, but at night I'd have Suva feed her out of the bottle of the milk. So you could get some sleep. So I could get some sleep. Oh, that's so smart. And if I needed to pump, I would just wake up and pump again. Oh, that's so
Dr. Jill Baker: smart. That's so smart.
Swetha: But I can't tell you how many times I've fallen asleep pumping.
Dr. Jill Baker: Or fall asleep nursing or pump. You're so tired. It's
Swetha: exhausting. So yeah, I've done that too.
Dr. Jill Baker: It's tiring. I just, yeah, I remember the times of coming home from work and then just having to nurse him like, Oh my gosh, this is a lot. This is a lot. But yeah I'm thinking, and I felt like you, I found like a great lactation.
consultant who helped me and was very supportive. And I think sometimes people don't know [00:37:00] that they can get that help to those resources as well, if you really want to breath feed.
Swetha: And also like just through the whole pregnancy, like getting, like having access to somebody you say, like a nutritionist, right?
Especially I feel because we're of color, there's certain things that our body needs that we are not aware of or we're not getting enough of, right? So I think that also becomes very important.
Dr. Jill Baker: Absolutely. Absolutely. sO after, so how, okay, so how old is Rima
Swetha: now? Rima is, she just turned seven in December.
Oh my gosh. She's growing too fast. Rima. She's growing way too fast. But we did try again after Rima. Yeah. Because we were like, oh, this one was. Rema was born, she was successful. So maybe, and that to me was one of the hardest miscarriages of all I've, of all of the ones I've had. Yeah.
I found out I was pregnant two months before Rema turned two. [00:38:00] Okay. And we were getting ready for her birthday party and three days before her birthday party, or her, her birthday party was on her actual birthday. I had a miscarriage. Oh, it was again. I don't know. What is it? What it was with me that none of the miscarriages, was like, I don't know what the medical term is.
I never bled out or I never okay. Okay. Okay. I had to get a DNC every single time. So I had to have a DNC like two days before her birthday slash birthday party. And thank God to my, thank God send to my sister. Who was my savior. She swooped in. She said, don't worry, I got this. We're still going to have a birthday party for her because she's turning two, but I didn't want to take that joy away from her.
I showed up at the birthday party, everything was, done, everything was ready, but it was so hard to put like. A fake smile on your face. Try to be happy. Inside physically, I was [00:39:00] still, hurting a little bit and emotionally, I was a hot mess.
Dr. Jill Baker: I was a total hot mess. And you have every right to be a hot mess.
Swetha: And I think that was the hardest one. Yeah. I had two more after Mimo was born and I was, I looked at Zubra and I said, I'm done.
Dr. Jill Baker: So you made a decision that we
Swetha: both decided together. We were like, even though we wanted to have more. Yes. Yes. Emotionally. Mentally go through it. I'm done. We have one. She's healthy. We're blessed. Let's just focus on raising her. Just be happy with what we have. Content.
Dr. Jill Baker: Content. Hurts my heart but at the same time, you're still, you and your husband are on the same page. Yes. That's key. Yes.
Swetha: That's key. Patience and communication.
I think with Throughout the entire journey between me and Subaru, the patient's part, yes, obviously we all have our moments where [00:40:00] things waver and you're allowed, I think, to get mad. You're allowed to vent, you're allowed to feel sad. And I just feel like not just as a woman, but as a man, as my husband, even though he's physically not going through what I went through, he was there every step of the way.
And I kept telling him, you're allowed to be upset. It's okay. You're allowed to cry like
Dr. Jill Baker: we were talking about earlier. You're allowed to grieve.
Swetha: Yes. And I feel again, with society, they expect the man to be like emotionally strong, not show any. Weakness, and it's not, and communication and being on the same page.
So we used to talk about things like, is this the path we want to go down? Because I can't go down a path if he is not a partner with me on that, or vice versa, because then all of a sudden you're struggling again, not just individually, but also in your partnership.[00:41:00] So that became very important, but we've been pretty much on the same page the entire time from the beginning to when we decided, you know what, no more trying, we're happy with her.
We're good. Occasionally, both of us will waver and say, I'm only 43. I know it's ancient, but we are not. I know. I know. I can't, but I'm Should we try? And then I go back and said, you know what? No,
Dr. Jill Baker: I'm good. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But you're fortunate that you two have been on the same page. And well, one issue, it's just, it's stressful on a marriage.
Trying to get pregnant. It's stressful on any relationship, any gender, any identity. It's just, it's very stressful.
Swetha: It isn't, and I really appreciate that you're bringing these issues and, the struggles that women, especially women of [00:42:00] color go through. And most of the time it's they have no place to vent or no where to go to.
And, I'm really glad that you're able to provide that information, a platform for people just to get on and share their stories, their journeys, and just talk about this.
Dr. Jill Baker: Oh, thank you. So that means some, that means so much to me. So much. I feel like this is my personal calling. I think we all think about, what our purpose is.
And I always feel like nothing is a coincidence or nothing happens for, I feel like everything happens for a reason. I was like I must have went through this experience to get pregnant for a rea for a reason. It can't just be so I could have suffered to become a mother or for us to suffer to become parents.
And that, how can we, take these painful experiences and help other people not go through the same experiences if they don't have to go through them. Oh, and
Swetha: I [00:43:00] agree. Sharing those stories are important, right? Sharing those experiences. If I can help one person, then, my work is done.
And not even work. It's something that your passion, like something you want to achieve and want to do for others.
Dr. Jill Baker: One thing that I did want to ask you is from you being a woman of South Asian descent, do you think that there are there's more pressure to. Have children and how does that kind of play out into the culture?
And then how does that affect actual, women? Oh, yes You know finding partners getting married and the whole Becoming
Swetha: a mother. I think it's a huge thing, right? I saw I'm you can go to any Like gathering, right? A week after you're getting married, the first question an auntie or an elder person will ask you So when are you having a baby, [00:44:00] right?
Like I've been married just for a week kind of answer response, right? That's what we usually give. So it's definitely there.
Dr. Jill Baker: Can I wait? Can you ask me in a month? That is
Swetha: definitely there, right? And then when you have your first one and you are like the baby's not even out of the crib yet Oh, are you trying for your second one?
So there's No real boundaries there. It's just again, almost like your job on earth, your reason for earth as a woman is appropriate. And I just feel like in this day and age with this generation and the younger ones we have different goals. We have different desires that we want out of life.
And I think the ability to achieve those are more. And what I'm trying to say is being a daughter of immigrants, right? South Asian immigrants. Yes. Yes. When they come, came here for them, it's Oh, everything is vested into their children. So those opportunities, [00:45:00] because of what they went through, those opportunities are available to us now.
So we can make conscious decisions. But the older generation doesn't know how to cope with their kids making decisions for themselves Because they were never allowed to write. That's what I got. It's just my opinion my thoughts so I think that plays a big part in the non acceptance Oh, right the decisions being made now because everybody is getting married a little bit older Yeah,
Dr. Jill Baker: because that's hope that's happening
Swetha: ANd I think it's because they want to know who they are first before they commit to a relationship with somebody else. And
Dr. Jill Baker: let's be honest, you knowing who you are, that is a lifetime journey. No it is very true. And so wanting to know a little bit more about yourself before you decide to.[00:46:00]
Being in a long term partnership marriage with somebody is very important. It's smart. No, it's smart. I'm sorry. It's smart. No, it is. And then I
Swetha: think also not being financially dependent on your partner, right? Because in the South Asian community and, the, like usually it's the woman is dependent.
On the man for, financially. So wanting to be financially independent takes time, right? Depending on how independent you want, where you want to be. So I think all of that comes into play and people are getting married older. So it's getting harder, I think, as women grow older to find partners.
Cause you know, I'm not, I just think it's. I don't know what it is, but I'm not the best person to talk on this because me and my husband have been together for 20 something years. Me and
Dr. Jill Baker: my husband too.
Swetha: People ask me, I'm like, I couldn't [00:47:00] give you any dating advice. But
Dr. Jill Baker: you still know the experience of your culture, your experiences, how women feel like, especially maybe if they just got married or about to get married or they haven't found someone.
Swetha: And it's hard, right? The ones that haven't found someone, I just feel like they always in the back of their head, they're like, it's a clock ticking for me. So I've seen. A lot more women getting, freezing their eggs in preparation for that, but it's not
Dr. Jill Baker: cheap to get your eggs frozen. It's not
Swetha: cheap.
So it's just, I just feel, I think society as a whole should just stack and let people be who they are, especially like all this pressure over the years and decades on women.
Dr. Jill Baker: And I think also, like you said, there's more women of color too, just out. We're [00:48:00] getting education. We have careers. So we're also trailblazing in those areas as well. And that's very different from, how it used to be 50 years ago, a hundred years ago. aNd it's going, that's going to continue to
Swetha: shift and I hope with that shift, people evolve as well in their thoughts, actions, and just judgment.
Stop judging. That's the hardest part
Dr. Jill Baker: for me. It's also, conversations that we even have with, with the kids. Like my twins are going to be 12, Gavin and Gemma are going to be 12, actually on Saturday. Crazy. Happy birthday to them. But like we talk about all the time, my daughter's I don't know if I want to get married.
I'm like, you don't have to get one. You don't have to get married if you don't want to. I'm like, number two, you don't even have to think about that right now. I'm like, but if you decide that is not for you, [00:49:00] that's okay. You have, you're not going to have any pressure from me or your father to, for you to get married.
Swetha: Period. And that's important that they hear that, right? That they have your
Dr. Jill Baker: And I say that for both of them. I say, as long as you're with people who are respectful, who are kind. And that you have some, values in common, you don't have to get married and that's you can still have a family to exactly.
Swetha: And that's that evolution that evolution. And as long as you as parents are supporting it, your kids need to hear that. And that is okay. And that's the only way I think you can change what's coming. Or, the future generations by supporting and not being held to norms that we were held to or what we went right,
Dr. Jill Baker: Because our what was expected of us was very different prescribed.
It [00:50:00] was very. Yes, exactly. Exactly. Oh my gosh, I think. I heard on the radio today, but I don't know, I could be wrong, but Angela Yee on her show, ah, Meghan Markle got a recognition for Miss Magazine yesterday. In New York, right? Yeah. In New York, and there was this whole something, the paparazzi almost tried to kill them.
Yeah, they were too faint. But she said on, she said, but I need, as a public health, I need to see if this is true or not, but she said that 50 years ago, in this country, women could not get bank accounts. Without their husband's co signing thing, but I was like 50 years ago. That's
Swetha: very recent.
Dr. Jill Baker: I was
Swetha: like, because I knew in long time ago, but I didn't know it was as recent as 50 years
Dr. Jill Baker: ago.
So I want to look and see if that, but let's just say what, let's just say it was 68. Yeah. That's insane.
Swetha: Why?
Dr. Jill Baker: But exactly what we were talking [00:51:00] about.
Swetha: Who makes the
Dr. Jill Baker: rules? And who does that benefit?
Swetha: It benefits them. In this case, right? It benefit, it benefited the men who are making the rules and the banks.
Yeah. Because most, let's face it, most of the heads of the banks were probably men. Men, right? Women were not high up in the workforce back then. Oh. Oh
Dr. Jill Baker: no. You probably had a job and didn't have a bank account. Imagine that. And then giving your check to your husband. Deposit.
Because I was like, wow.
Swetha: Yeah. But even like recently too, I read an article where just the number of, in this day and age, like how the number of CEOs, the men's CEOs.
In terms of salary, they received so much more, that's still a pain. Women, it is, it's a huge problem.
Dr. Jill Baker: Yeah. Hey, it's still a problem. Hey, it's
Swetha: still a problem. Yup. And even like I was looking at, cause I love watching tenants to go Djokovic, [00:52:00] but having said that, like even in the Italian masters, I think the women's pay. It's half of what the men made is unacceptable. I still don't. It's 2023 now,
Dr. Jill Baker: right? That's
Swetha: unacceptable. So we're like, I see in every facts of life, I just feel like women are undervalued in general. Sports, be it corporate, whatever it may be, it's just sad. So before you go
Dr. Jill Baker: on this first conversation on the show, is there any guidance that you would have for couples who might be.
Listening. It might be in a similar place where you are, on your journey.
Swetha: A couple of things I really want everybody to take away from my journey is one being patient for the entire process. That's very important. [00:53:00] Being on the same page with your partner or with if you don't, if you're going at it alone.
Being on the same page with your health care providers, right? As in, you dictate what you want, not the other way around, right? And I was, I learned that I make my, I make decisions because it's my body, it's what I want to
Dr. Jill Baker: do. I love that. We, I talk about that on the show, on every show. And I just,
Swetha: Every single show.
Yeah, and I just think women forget, oh, they're the experts. Yes, they are the experts, but it's you that's going through this. It's, again, in this case, it was me. Thank you. Yeah, so that is very important. And if you do have a partner being the line knowing what you need to do.
And the last thing is again, reaching out for help. So for example, I keep coming back to that. I, whole, like I had good. Insurance, right? And especially in this country, it becomes so important because everything is tied to insurance, right? What you can [00:54:00] do, what you are able to get done with the resources you have to be able to, go down this path where I had access to experts.
So if you don't reach out, I think, reaching out to the community, right? There's a lot of women doctors or even men doctors that do pro bono work, right? Because they want to give back to the community, right? So not, do not fear or do not, hesitate to ask for help if you need, because if they're not the right person, hopefully they'll be able to guide you to the right
Dr. Jill Baker: person or you'll find someone else who is the right.
Exactly.
Swetha: Yes. And I think that, is very important because I really don't believe being of color should be a barrier to being a parent. And I think, Ooh,
Dr. Jill Baker: I felt it.
Swetha: Ooh. Ooh.
Dr. Jill Baker: I rehearsed that. Ooh. We're going to have to copyright that. I'm going to have to put that on it. We're going to put that on a shirt or something.[00:55:00]
Swetha: We should. Oh my God, Jill. That's great. We should put that on a shirt, but definitely being, that's
Dr. Jill Baker: going to be the time. We got the title of the show. There we go.
Swetha: Yeah. I was thinking about it when Sarah asked me what title do you want it to be? And I said, not
Dr. Jill Baker: sure. Oh, we got it now.
Swetha: So yeah.
Again, it shouldn't be a barrier and it's really sad that it still happens in this day and age. And I think if I can help even one person on this. Journey of mine, I'll be more than happy to. And I'm very vocal about this because I'm open to talking about it because I had no one that was so vocal when I went through this.
Again, if people need to reach out to me to just chat more than happy to chat, so patience, communication with your partner, um, and reaching out for help when you need should be, I think. Main important things and also [00:56:00] give yourself some grace, right? So important. Yeah. And, give yourself some grace because not being able to procreate is not a failure.
Dr. Jill Baker: And it doesn't mean you're not a mother or a woman. Yes. Exactly. So thank you so much, my sister. Thank you so much. This is going to be so great. It's going to help so many people. Thank you to all the listeners for tuning in this week. And I want to give a special thank you to Swetha Amruthar for joining me on the show and sharing her knowledge and her experiences to her road to motherhood.
so much.
Thank you for listening to this episode of Maternal Health 911. Please follow the show on [00:57:00] Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter. Feel free to DM me with your questions and thoughts or to share your infertility, fertility, and maternal health story. For more information on this podcast and your host. Visit www.
drjoebaker. com. Listening to the show on Apple podcast, please rate and review it. It really helps the show and the feedback is welcome.
In this episode, we delve into the complex realm of infertility and its disparities, particularly focusing on the racialized lens through which it is often viewed. Join us as we explore the research, statistics, and perspectives that shed light on the impact of ethnicity on fertility outcomes.
Infertility is a prevalent issue affecting 10% of women aged 15-44 in the U.S. (CDC, 2019).
Approximately 7.4 million women and their partners grapple with fertility-related challenges in the U.S.
Dr. Meera Shah, a double board-certified OB GYN and reproductive endocrinologist, joins us to discuss the significance of ovarian reserve, measured by AMH (anti-Mullerian hormone).
A study conducted at UCSF in 2013 examined AMH levels across different ethnic groups, revealing notable differences.
Striking variations in IVF outcomes were observed among Black, Hispanic, Asian, and white women.
Studies comparing Caucasians and East Asians adjusted for key factors, yet East Asian women exhibited significantly lower live birth rates.
Dr. Sandra Bärnreuther's research highlights how South/Asian-ness is framed as an independent risk factor in infertility and IVF practice (Social Science & Medicine, 2021).
Narratives such as Indian women experiencing a rapid decline in ovarian reserve contribute to a racialized reproductive panic.
The Hindustan Times' 2015 article amplifies the urgency around ovarian aging in India, although it relies on non-scientific data.
Dr. Bärnreuther emphasizes the need to broaden perspectives on infertility, moving beyond biomedical and racial/ethnic lenses to address and explain disparities.
As we conclude this episode, we reflect on the importance of dismantling racialized perspectives in infertility research and practice. Understanding the broader context and embracing a more inclusive approach is crucial for addressing and rectifying disparities in fertility outcomes. Stay tuned for more discussions on health, science, and society in future episodes.
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