Ep.20/ Maternal Death Grief and Loss with Dr. Angela Clack, Real Hamilton Romeo and Dr. Jill Baker
Ep.20/ Maternal Death Grief and Loss with Dr. Angela Clack, Real Hamilton Romeo and Dr. Jill Baker
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Note: This transcription has been created with a help of an AI thus errors and mistranscriptions may be present.
[00:00:00] Hello? Maternal Health 911? What's your emergency?
Hi, I'm Dr. Joe Baker. I'm a wife, a mother, a community health scholar, an executive director, and a fertility coach. More than 12 years ago, I was on my own infertility journey. Since then I've made it my personal mission to help anyone who is on their own journey. To become a parent as well as shed light on infertility and maternal health experiences of BIPOC women and couples.
Now let's begin this week's episode of Maternal Health 9 1 1.
Greetings Maternal Health 9 1 1 listeners this is your host, Dr. Jill Baker. [00:01:00] I am here to give a little overview of this very exciting episode, which we're calling Lost Episodes. This is an episode from my old show, A Tribe Called Fertility podcast of which this episode I had the pleasure of talking to the amazing, brilliant Dr.
Angela Clark. Whose whole career has focused on helping women of color deal with infertility and pregnancy loss. And so myself and my old partner, Raelle Hamilton Romeo, were able to talk to her and have this great one on one conversation, but we actually never released this episode. And they were so gracious to let me share this episode with you all on maternal health 911.
So without further ado yet, check out this episode with me, Raelle [00:02:00] and Dr. Angela Clark. Enjoy. Dr. Clack, welcome. Thank you so much for being on with A Tribe Called Fertility. Hi, everybody, and thank you for having me back. Yes, so I know you've had a chance to hear Janine's story, so we'll talk about her first.
And we, in that episode, we also talked a little bit about Chrissy Teigen and John Legend and them experiencing a similar loss. And we touched on Meghan Duchess of Sussex, the loss that she and her husband, Prince Harry experienced. It sounded like it was very early on in the pregnancy as well. Just in terms of miscarriages, I guess the first question for you would be, why do you think women and families, couples don't necessarily talk about experiencing that type of loss?
Oh, wow. I think many reasons. I think one of the reasons, there is [00:03:00] a sense of shame around thinking that there was something that they could have done to prevent this or there's something they did and there's the excitement about being pregnant and announcing that, getting the families all excited and looking forward to it.
Thank you. First time mom or another day you didn't add it to the family the people already are doing planning and then to deliver that a lot of people don't want to answer a lot of questions because people don't know what's going to happen and they need time to change. I think families don't know what to say and so they keep this experience private for as long as they can.
They tell one or two and then slowly they can. with the rest of the family. But I think it's just [00:04:00] something around what did I do? And they don't necessarily always know what happened medically. And, We are human. So we're going to ask what happened? And people are just trying to figure things out with themselves and with their partner and really don't have the energy to give a lot to their family members.
Yeah, I think I would have to agree with you there. One of the things Janine said when we interviewed her was, I was so embarrassed. And I was like, Oh my gosh, just personally, when she told me, I was like you really don't have to be embarrassed. But I can understand it's like doing because she did not like huge fanfare, but she did a post on social media, which is very common nowadays.
And I think in that type of forum, knowing that so many people know, and then to have to go back and be like, yeah, so this. And I actually have a friend who [00:05:00] she's not a black woman and the same thing, and she mentioned it and everybody at work was like, oh my God, how so and and all I could say was, like, I literally just shook my head because that wasn't my news to share, but everybody was just like, oh, we haven't heard from her.
Is she doing okay? And, don't want them to say the wrong thing. But at the same time, it's you also don't want to perpetuate that kind of not a lie, but the misconception that they're still with child. I like that it's not my story to share. And I think that we want, and that's where I think we have to be patient with the couple or their mom and and letting them tell the story that they want to win.
fAmily. I know and sometimes it's out of just genuine concern, what can I do? And other times it's just just, we just need to know. [00:06:00] And that, that's very uncomfortable for families to set that boundary. Yeah, I would definitely have to agree. The other thing So in Janine's case, this was her first pregnancy and she experienced this loss, but I know of a few other women personally, and I think Jill, you even mentioned someone that, you know, as well in the last episode, who experienced multiple miscarriages.
Oh yes, several. What does something like that do to someone? Because I can, Thankfully, I've not had that experience, but I know from the way my brain works, I'd be like, what's wrong with me? I'm a failure of a woman. I can't even I can make a baby, but I can't even sustain a baby. Does this mean that when, I do eventually become a mother that.
I won't be able to take care of one. Like what does that do to someone just from a psychological standpoint? Yeah. I think you've got it right, that there's again, we're talking about shame. And some way that I'm defective. I [00:07:00] can't even carry this baby. beCause I like the stories in narrative you guys are sharing.
I've worked with a couple of women over the last couple of years who've had miscarriages and so when they get pregnant, they do not get excited because it. I'm probably not going to be able to say this, so it creates a lot of doubt, a lot of fear of insecurity and depression because now they feel like I can't even get excited because I've been pregnant and the doctor says I have to get rest or I have to do this and I'm not so sure that I can do all of that even if I wanted to and I did.
There's no guarantee, so it creates just so much around feeling like I'm broken and defective. There must be something wrong with me and a sense of then a loss of the ideal of being a mom. Sometimes you give up and they give up that whole dream about being a mom, [00:08:00] and so we have to work through that loss of identity, that the new identity or role of being a mom has to be worked through itself.
There's so many dynamics that come with that, but there's a grieving process with that too, and I think people don't recognize that even with miscarriages and losses, that even though the woman can subsequently have more pregnancies, they're still grieving the loss of their baby. And so we have to make sure that we take that into consideration.
When they don't show so much excitement and they tell families, Oh, I'm a pregnant again. I'm like, Oh, why aren't you still excited? She's still breathing the law of the experience of not being able to carry the other baby. So there's a lot of patience that has to happen. But I think for women they internalize this as something special.
You said something that was very interesting and I've heard people say this and I find it to be bit [00:09:00] insensitive and maybe controversial where people are like It was early enough in the pregnancy that, was it wasn't like a real baby or the baby wasn't here yet. So did you really have time to bond with the baby and those types of things?
Can you talk to us about how, I feel like it's very real. So what is that and personally, like I've had two abortions and I know, I think I was asleep for both. And my, with my second abortion, I was contemplating whether or not I wanted to continue with the pregnancy. And when I woke up from am, When I woke up from the anesthesia, the nurse said that I kept saying my baby, I want to see my baby.
So me thinking about that for myself and knowing that someone who has carried a child to maybe three months, four months, six, seven, eight, nine months only to have a stillbirth or a miscarriage, what is that and is that really a [00:10:00] real loss and how connected is mother and baby at that point?
I think for the most part most of the women, at least I can talk about now, whether people are saying that because they've never been a mom and so they don't know what that experience is to know something that's actually wrong. Like you have a whole human being to be growing inside of you. And the connection right away, particularly when women are to concede, knowing that that's a different narrative yes, seven years, eight years, 10 years, whatever has been the time has passed.
And then you get to know that seed, it's growing. But people are connected right away. And I think the insensitivity either comes out of ignorance, honestly. Or they just don't know in terms of never having being a parent. I've heard that too, when people lose an adult, like they may lose a mom or [00:11:00] dad.
And I've heard an adult say you didn't have a relationship with them anyway. That doesn't matter. They still, genetically, I'm a part of them still. I haven't talked to them in 30 years, but that's still a loss. And so I'm feeling that loss of that connection or the attachment that I had formed already in my heart and in my spirit and in my mind.
So I, I think that's a real, I want to say that maybe it's just out of ignorance, that people just don't know better and just don't know what else to say. And I think they're helping the person by minimizing the significance of. You didn't hold her or him and you didn't get to see them and so maybe it's not as bad as them coming into the world and I don't, these are not apples and oranges, it's like babies.
I'm sorry that is something that people say. And I think conversations like this will help people to not say that or say things like that, that feel very Thank you. [00:12:00] Rejecting right to the mom and the dad. So I'm glad you said Mom and dad is one of the things that I'm always curious about and thankfully, like I know a lot of amazing couples, but in terms of dads in times like this with pregnancy loss, like mom and baby are literally.
Connected from a physical standpoint, umbilical cord baby is growing inside of mom, but dad is or even if it's another partner, if you have same sex couples, for example, the other partner is not necessarily living that day to day experience and bonding with the unborn child in the same way. So what is the grief like for the non pregnant partner, I guess is the best way for me to put that and how can That person support the pregnant mother or even have, other people support them as a couple.
What I've [00:13:00] heard from the non pregnant partner, if it's the male figure or female partner, is that they're forgotten. That everybody comes in nurtured and everybody comes in rallies for the mom. But she's the, so to speak, the incubator. She is the one who's actually carrying the universe. And preparing her, prepare her womb.
And so we only think about the mom. And people forget about the non pregnant part. And and the non pregnant partner also wants to support the mom. So they will also step back and allow people to love on that person. And sometimes they won't speak up for themselves and say, God, I'm hurting too.
And often the fathers aren't for God, they traditional role. They're the one who may not be around because they're working or something and mom may be working too, but she's probably at some point be taking it down a little bit less and trying to just really keep her body [00:14:00] healthy.
And so we put a lot of expectations on the other partner to take care of other day to day things. And so when the baby does not, the baby isn't here anymore. The partner also feels the loss that he or she, whoever that partner is. Just doesn't seem to get the same attention and loved on and cared for. And it's unfortunate, but again, I think conversations like this will remind people that there are two parents.
Yeah. And we wanna be able to support them both in, so now what do you say to someone who's experienced a pregnancy loss? Because I know I was remembering that when I was very young. I wanna say maybe like early teens. We had a family friend and. She and her husband had one child and she was expecting the second.
And then something happened and she ended up having a stillbirth. I believe it was [00:15:00] after, I think she was about six months pregnant. And no one said anything. So we got the news that she was in the hospital. The baby didn't make it. She comes out of the hospital a few days later, no one says anything it.
And I always wondered as a young girl why wouldn't we talk about it? Why wouldn't we say anything? And then I was like is it too painful? And Do you just never mention it again? So what is the quote unquote right thing to say? Because it's either you're full on. It's Oh, my God, what happened?
What did you do? Like, how are you feeling? Do you need anything? Or it's the completely ignore it like it never happened. It's just two extremes. What's the happy medium? I probably can answer what not to say first. Okay, I think it's not to say it's, oh, you can have more. You already have children. Like those things are so hurtful.
And it's so dismissive of [00:16:00] where that mother is right in that moment. That's the last thing they need to hear again. I think people are well intentioned. They just don't know what to say. And I think the reason why it's not addressed in your original question. People are accustomed to traditions around death as an adult.
So if an adult is in a car accident or adult 65 or 66, 80, we know that at some point they are reaching that age where more health complications come in. We prepare our mind for death inevitably at some point. People don't anticipate that for moms and newborn babies. So they're not equipped with how to handle that versus saying, wow, she lived a long life.
She did this during her time on earth. She did all these, we can list all these accolades or achievements, or someone's in an accident. Oh, that was a tragic accident. We understand accidents. We don't understand food at all. And so [00:17:00] many people don't know what to say because that's not an experience that they know happened.
It's freaking, we know the numbers. Okay. Okay. We know the numbers and we know the story. But the average person who doesn't do this work or isn't in some way an advocate, this is a, they're at a loss too. They don't know what to say. Because it's not what society has given enough attention to. We talk about death and dying for the aging population.
But we do that, or chronically ill, right? But we don't, and we have not looked at fetal maternal fetal. So with that said, I'm not sure how familiar you are about, you probably are. John Legend and Chrissy Teigen losing their son, Jack. We talked about this on the episode with Jeanine.
And her, Chrissy, posting the pictures in the hospital right [00:18:00] after delivering Jack. And just, we all said that, the courage of Chrissy to do something like that. Knowing that she wasn't going to go home with Jack. And her asking John to please take these pictures. And at first he was resistant.
And then he agreed to take the pictures of her. But unfortunately, she received a lot of harsh feedback from people. So I wanted to hear your perspective on this, as this was how she One method she chose to, to handle her grief but from your professional perspective just what do you think about her decision to take these pictures and also your feelings on the comments that she received about them?
Yeah, I remember this and I have read about it and I think I posted a couple articles about it too. And one of the [00:19:00] things I get so a little bit I don't know if angry is a word, I don't know, but yeah, one of them. People judging other people's choices around how they want to share their story. If I want to come out and say I'm a part of the new movement, something happened to me, I don't need the backlash, why didn't you Why are you coming up now?
I'm coming out now for whatever reason. I don't need that judge. And I feel like that's where she was. Like, this is how I want to share my story. And this is how I want to remember and memorialize this moment. You may not do it that way. This may feel uncomfortable for you. But don't judge how I choose to remember what I have established as a relationship already with this group.
That's how I'm creating a ritual and a memorialize. [00:20:00] This is my story. How are you making this story? How do you, why did you get to judge that about me? And I'm sorry, so sorry that people, because of social media, people have such a platform to always have an opinion. And I'm just hoping that she, and I'm just not knowing her, but knowing of her.
That she did not internalize any of that, and that her engineer did exactly the way they wanted it to happen, and that this, for her, would help her move along in her grieving process in a much more healthier way. And people have to allow people to have their voice. I feel like no matter what you do, someone has something to say.
Yes. Then it's Oh, how come y'all didn't share the story? Exactly. We want to know what happened. Yeah. Yeah. Like we know she was pregnant. Aren't you going to tell us? It's interesting that you say that because on an unrelated topic, [00:21:00] there's been something going around on social media.
Like I said, I'm Caribbean, so I follow a lot of the Caribbean accounts. Has nothing to do with fertility at the moment, but something you said in everyone has like That opinion, whether one way or the other. And it's a common thread that I'm noticing. And I don't know if it's just this keyboard warrior syndrome where you have this veil of anonymity because you are not saying this to someone in person, or if it's that you just feel so entitled to your opinion because social media gives everyone the opportunity to have a platform, but it's if I say I decided to wear red socks instead of blue, what's wrong with blue socks? It's like the Black Lives Matter. All lives matter. We're not talking about that right now. So it's almost like people just really, I think it really is like this entitlement. It's just. It's very bizarre to me that they feel like they have to have an opinion.
And especially if you [00:22:00] don't agree, instead of scrolling past, unless it's factually incorrect I very rarely like jump into social media conversations. But people just, feel like it's their place to just say things that are just so bizarre that they wouldn't say quote unquote in real life. I Think the other thing with social media, what happens is because we share so much of ourselves there is people feel the right to insert themselves into your story.
as If they're like a family member or something that they get to share for, in their minds. You didn't want me to say anything. You shouldn't have put it out there. Some things are better left instead and kept in your head. You can think whatever you want, but it's not necessary that you have to feel like you have to insert yourself inside everybody's story.
So I think, again, that's the irresponsibility of social media. And that's not going to work. One thing I've been very curious about. So For example, with people who, if they've experienced like fertility [00:23:00] issues or they've had like multiple miscarriages or loss, and they find that they're not able to conceive, whether naturally or through fertility assistance.
Oftentimes, if you say something like I know you really wanted to have a biological child, you can adopt, you can consider surrogacy. What is it about us as humans, I guess is the best way to ask that we feel that need to have a biological child? Is it ego? Is it like something ingrained in us just from a biological standpoint?
What is that narcissism? Yeah, if it's not, if we didn't create it it's not as it's you didn't fight hard for it. Then it wasn't like a fight that was worth winning kind of thing. Is that What is that with us in naturally or biologically procreating? That's a good question.
I'm not sure if I know everybody's rationale for how they understand [00:24:00] that. I think some of this is a Historical and that, we have unless we know of people before us who haven't had babies, if we have this whole line of generations of women who've had 10 kids, and then you come along and you don't have any, there's just what's going on?
But I think sometimes it's very ostracized and you don't follow the family legacy of, yeah, we all have six or more kids or something like that. I don't know why people because later on we do a lot of kinship here. Later on we are aunt of our sister or brother's kids like we pick it up later.
So I don't know why we don't adopt that at the beginning, like it's being thinking. Now you notice that more, at least I've noticed more moms are doing that because Candy did it, right? Candy Burst did this. Yes yeah. And Chloe, right? So there are more women who are, oh, you're one [00:25:00] of them.
Kim, sorry again. Yeah, whether they're doing it for vain reasons or because they really, I don't hear so many things, but I don't know, but I don't know if I know the answer to that. I don't know why I don't know if it's just that historically we have just I think the only thing I can offer to that from Gamal and I going through our infertility challenge, challenge for two years with trying to get pregnant, I know for me, I just felt one, I wanted to be a mom.
I wanted to be a mom forever. And so that was why I fast forward everything else, like finish school, do this, do that. And then right after boom, I'm going to start my family. And so those two years, I really felt am I just [00:26:00] felt like less of a woman because. But as a woman, biologically, we're supposed to be able to get pregnant and then that not happening.
I really felt like something was wrong with me as a woman because I couldn't get pregnant. That's really interesting. I will say when my gynecologist told me that I was going through ovarian failure in my head, I was like, Oh, okay. I don't want any more kids anyway, but then I left his office and went in the car and was bawling my eyes out.
And I called my mom and I was like, I don't even know why I'm crying. And my mother, she's very detached. So she's like she gets emotional, but the thing she gets emotional about wouldn't be the same things I would. So she was like why are you crying? She was like, you don't want any more kids.
You're not going to have your period anymore. You should be happy. And I was like, but I'm too young. I was like, I'm only 39. This is like messing with other parts of my life. She was like, just say goodbye and keep it moving. I cannot tell [00:27:00] you what that was about to this day. Why I had such a breakdown that I was in premature ovarian failure, except maybe in some recess of my mind.
I felt like my womanhood or like my, it was like leaving and I didn't have the option to say, I don't want this. It wasn't in your control. And I'm a huge control freak. Infertility is the same way. It's the same control and the control. Or for us control freaks you have, you are not in control of that.
That's what it's that loss of control because of that. Whether I've had children or not before, it's oh, wow. The it's taking away something that identified me. As a mother, as a woman, there's a part of me that's, oh, I don't have that anymore. sO that might be, that sounds what you just described.
Okay. I wonder, and then we can go on to [00:28:00] talking about Omari, but one other question I had. So when we met with Edo for episode two, she talked about having the double mastectomy hair issues. What is it air falling out about those things? Because I even remember having, having PCOS and going through that time where my hair, which is usually super curly, went like in the straight, like I had a relaxer again.
And I just remember thinking like, Oh my gosh, like what's happening to me. And then me cutting it. I've always cut my hair. Jill knows, like I will cut my hair off. It'll grow back long again, cut it off again, like almost bald. And in that instant, just thinking about hair, breasts, like the things that we think make us.
feminine or women. What is it about the loss of these, I don't want to say things like appendages, like not organs. I don't know. I'm not using the right terminology, but what is it about not [00:29:00] having, those parts to us that makes us feel like we're less than a woman. Yeah. It's insane to me. The hair are the parts that identify as feminine from masculine.
Hair. Hair. Hair and that's been The womb, like those are things that identify us as being a woman, the femininity and being a mother that, that sets us apart from the masculine part. But also, think about this growing up, old school, our hair is our crowning glory. And so for years, that has been like, we did not cut our hair.
Another thing my grandma said all the time. I don't know that. Jill, yes. My grandmother? Jill's hair used to be like down to her butt. And I feel like that's why you started cutting your hair when you got older and went to college. Yeah, I did. And I'm doing it now, no one's gonna stop me. But yeah, she was [00:30:00] like, you don't, your hair is your crown and glory.
That's right. That old school, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like it's passed down. The same thing. Yeah. Those messages, they get passed down generationally. It's very interesting. Like the things that we hold on to, like regardless of where we go in the world, what our experiences are, how much education we've acquired, those are the things that are like ingrained in us that it's almost like nature instead of like nurture, even though it's been nurtured.
For us. Wow. Okay. Oh listen, I want to say this because now you make me it's not until it becomes a consciousness of raising awareness that we aren't identified by those things. So I always think of India area. I'm not my hair. Like it's that we are more than hair. We are more than our breath.
And we are, we have more than those things. [00:31:00] There's so much more to it, so if we don't have them, it doesn't take away from who we are. It's your perception that I should look a certain way. And I should, have those. So when we lose those things, I think that's part of the early thinking around you keep, your hair and all those things.
But later on, that so many people go away from that. Like you said, you care, or just change the identity from those very traditional, those kind of things that happened much much, much before. Yeah, I feel like I'm going through that with my 14 year old now. She decided that she didn't want to relax her hair anymore and she wanted to transition.
And at the start of the pandemic, she was like, I'm tired of this. I just want to cut the straight ends off. And I was like, are you sure you don't know what you look like with short hair? You haven't had short hair in a while. And she was like, just cut it. And I cut it. And then she was like, why did you let me do this?
I don't like it. I look like a boy. And I was like, oh my gosh. [00:32:00] And it's been months. It's like starting to grow back, but the same exact thing. And I'm like. You are super beautiful. Look at you look like me. I was like, and everybody says we look alike and you think I'm pretty. I was like, so you must be pretty too.
And she's but you can wear short hair and I can't. So it's interesting that I've never indoctrinated her in that way. And like I said, I've cut my hair so many times in her entire life that it's interesting that she would still hold onto that. So to your point, I'm going through that now. And I'm like, it doesn't matter.
Like you are. Still beautiful with hair, without hair. I'm like, we could do a Baldy. And she's no, not going to happen. It's really just interesting to see just different stages of becoming a woman and just becoming comfortable with yourself.
Hello, Maternal Health 911 listeners. If you are enjoying this episode, and if you happen to be going through [00:33:00] infertility, or, someone who might be, and who needs. Support. I want to announce to all of you that I am offering fertility and infertility coaching services, and I have a very limited amount of spots, but for those of you who are interested.
Please visit my website, ww dot dr joe baker.com, or you can email me at Dr joelBaker@gmail.com about your interest and we can figure out a time to book a consult call. Would love to hear and help in any way that I can. Also, we talked about pregnancy loss and now it'll be great just to get into maternal loss.
And as we found out a few weeks ago, you actually know [00:34:00] of our other guest Omari because you are very well acquainted with his mom. So you know about his story and his experience and his journey with maternal loss. So Before we actually get into talking about aspects of his experience similar question to before.
I know you said like when the non pregnant partner in a pregnancy loss situation, they're often forgotten. In a maternal loss situation, the Non pregnant partner is the one who remains with the child. What is that like in terms of grieving the loss of your partner, but still trying to enjoy the birth of your child?
I think it's overwhelming for that non pregnant. I think one of the things is also key is the relationship that the non pregnant partner has with the family that he's identified with. So [00:35:00] the non pregnant partner, the maternal family, so the mom who has passed away, and what is his relationship like with that support system?
And we pray that it's a good one because he needs, he or that partner, will need that, that, that support around, particularly, when you think about men who don't know how to, he can't breastfeed, so he has to do all those things that he may not have prepared himself for. And learn all these things.
So we say that there are big groups maternal figures that know how to surround him and say, Hey, this is how you do that. And walk him through that until he gets it. If he's had that support, if he doesn't have that support, that can be very isolated and he will have to find a tribe.
He or she will have to find a job, a community. It could be it could be a birthing center that offers support or a father, a fatherhood Okay. Becoming more and more available. So it's about the social support [00:36:00] system for that person. So because now they're parenting and may not have planned to be the primary parenting, primary caregiver, and they're also taking care of responsibility.
So they're trying to do a lot all thrown at that non pregnant partner. At the same time, that's overwhelming. Yeah. That, I don't know, that narrative has to be shared by that non pregnant partner. They will give us insight into that story because I couldn't imagine that it would be. Yeah, and I was even thinking just now you said something that I guess I was thinking but you verbalized it really well in terms of not having prepared for their current circumstance.
So especially when the surviving partner is a man. As the woman you've grown up being around other women are talking to other women or knowing women who were pregnant, maybe even seeing your mom or an [00:37:00] aunt or someone. And so you've had a chance to internalize some of that. You've read the magazines the books and those types of things.
I know what I feel like when I go to work. I'm not prepared for a meeting. I can't imagine what that's suddenly having a tiny human that you have to care for, and you've not been prepared for that, not only from a biological standpoint, but also just from a practical, real world standpoint. So yeah, I definitely, I hear what you're saying in terms of meeting a tribe and a support network because it can definitely feel isolating.
And it's like a weird place to be in, in terms of dealing with your grief. And I feel like, especially for someone with a newborn versus let's say like a parent who lost their spouse and their kids may be a little bit older. With that newborn who has such acute needs that. can't be verbalized or you don't even [00:38:00] understand and there's no one there for you to say, babe, what does this mean?
Like how, how do we do this? It's tough. I can't imagine the anxiety around feeling like I'm gonna fail. I'M going to mess up. I'm going to do something wrong. Yeah, just want the prepared person in the way that the mom prepared from day one. They've been in that supportive kind of role and that's fathers are on top of it.
Maybe they're a little bit more involved. I just always at my parents have been at the moment. So excited. And so part of this process, beginning to end whether they were reading the doctors possible. So the More current kind of literature on becoming parents, but I just can't imagine the anxiety about being white.
If I do something wrong or the fear that her family will be mad at me, that's what's needed now or, and or the opposite. Everybody keeps telling me what to do. They want me to do this. They want me to do that. That's overwhelming. Yeah. How, what [00:39:00] are some ways or how would you suggest that the surviving partner, honor the deceased spouse or partner, for example just in terms of sharing who she was with their child, who doesn't get to meet the mom, or if you, in Omari's case, he had a toddler who was like two, I believe and now this newborn, the two year old may not necessarily remember mommy may ask for mommy but in a few years, if mommy is not there.
And I know it's like my daughter now if I say to her, Oh, you remember so and no. So it's may not remember. The mom. How do you honor the parent who's gone in terms of within that family unit? I think the only way you can with little people are visuals and so pictures, and when they're old enough to understand you can start the storytelling.
Mom really enjoyed hearing you know she was so connected to [00:40:00] you. She came up with the name, like sharing all of what the partner, the surviving partner can about who the mom was like all of them. So almost building the identity for the little one that is here with the surviving parent. And so hopefully there are pictures.
I remember when Amari was sharing the picture, I think on the wall. Yes. Yeah. So that's a very visual image that the young person can always have in their mind. That's who I look like. The little ones will have references. Yes. And if I never got to meet my mom, the only thing I have are photos and pictures and videos.
So now we know we have videos. Exactly. Yeah. So that's more live, like . They can see the energy, her laughter, her smile when she was crying, or if they took if they kept being captured. Now I know mom memory books. And different [00:41:00] things. So those things are what keep that parent alive.
Okay. Okay. And now question. So the converse of a a woman who's experienced a miscarriage or some type of like stillbirth or pregnancy loss with a child who has survived his or her mom, can he or she miss someone that they didn't meet? I believe that biologically that happens. I definitely believe that.
I believe I've heard narratives of twins where one is lost and the other surviving and the surviving twin still feels the loss. And that was in utero where the second baby might not have survived. But that living twin later feels and notices so many things. So I do believe, I think if you bonded with someone that long, How could it not?
Now, I have, I don't have any research or evidence that says that. I only have narratives that have been shared with me. And I can only [00:42:00] imagine that hearing someone and being connected, how could I not feel comfortable? I may not be able to identify it. That may be something someone might tell me to do later in life.
I want to believe. Yes, but then notice hearing things experienced and missing part of that person. I do. Do you think that there are or is there any evidence to show that Children who lost a parent, their mom in childbirth or just after childbirth, that it has any type of long term like psychological effects or anything like that?
Yeah. Do they develop differently than someone whose mother has not died in, I don't want to say tragic, I don't know if that's like the right word to use, but under those types of circumstances, I think the thing that would make that difference [00:43:00] is what happens post the trauma of the law. It's like how, and this would be for any family, any child that loses a parent very early on, is that how much of what happened was normalized later for them, like developmental milestones, they went to school on time, the language and, if they needed, if they had a need for early intervention, those needs were met.
I believe as long as the needs are met, and it's a very nurturing environment, that the kid will develop just like any other kid. And now, later on in life when the narrative is shared with them, they may have some questions that have to work through some things. But I think more about what happens right after in terms of making sure that the child's emotional, physical, mental needs are met.
it. Take care of them right away. Do you think that kids have survivor's guilt or that the parent who [00:44:00] survives has survivor's guilt? If I could have carried the baby, whether it's she would be here with the kids kind of thing, or if the child takes on that guilt and it's if, my parents didn't have me, my mom would still be here, especially if they have like another sibling or if they see their surviving parents struggling.
Is that like a thing or. Is it something that I just created in my own mind to be like, I wonder if this happens. No, I think that the parents definitely could have that. I think there is this feeling like, if I could change places so that she could, I believe that people, they've had a really good relationship and they really were, they knew the heart of the mom that they would.
Yeah, absolutely. I think. I don't want to believe so much for the child because it depends on the story that the child is told, but the child is told, when your mom gave birth to you, she you were tied around her, it depends on how you tell the [00:45:00] story and then the child is I hadn't been born in that way.
She would be here. Then I think there's some kind of guilt versus. Mom had some medical complications and she made a choice for you to be here. That's the love she had for you. It's what the story is told around the law. That's what I think will always make a difference. It's interesting because I remember when I was pregnant, and I don't remember when in my pregnancy, but my my ex, he and I remember having a conversation because I would read and to this day, I still do.
A lot of morbid things. So I was like, Oh my gosh, like anything could happen. I was like, I knew that women sometimes had complications. I didn't know what led to it. So I was like, if, I don't know if I brought it up or he did, but somehow we got on the topic and I was like, if something were to happen, I was like, it saved the baby at all costs.
And he was like he was like, if something were to happen, it's a you, we can make [00:46:00] another baby. And I was like no. You saved the baby. And I don't know where I got that from. I remembered watching some movie as a kid and Demi Moore was in it. And Whatever the question was, they kept saying you save him.
And she thought it was like some man, but it was the baby that she would eventually carry. And when she answered, yes, she delivered the baby and then she passed away in childbirth. I don't know if that's something that stuck with me, but I've always just felt like save the baby. Like I've lived my life and my ex partner, he was just like, no.
And I think from his standpoint, it was, I wouldn't know how to do this without you. I'm assuming, but I was just like, are you crazy? I was like, so I was like, I need to have this written down. You will not save me. You will save baby first. And if I can be saved and do that, thankfully we're both, we were both fine, but is that Is that something families should be thinking about or talking about just in terms of should [00:47:00] something go wrong?
Where should doctors expend their effort? Like a living will or some kind of like advanced directive. I don't know. That one what was the name of the young woman that was on the panel at Rowan that said that she had a plan written out for yes. She goes to the hospital if something happened and she was super young.
So I'm like, if someone had at that young had that much foresight, is that something that all expectant parents should be thinking of or doing? I think it's more, I feel like it's more something that black parents need. I don't want to think about it. That's why I think that people don't want, unless it's a high risk, if we are someone's high risk.
And like I said, someone that maybe has had multiple miscarriages or they have other health conditions that is being flared up as a result of being pregnant, like diabetes or something else. And the doctor says, Hey, we [00:48:00] have to maybe consider this. Then people think about it, but I don't, I think people don't want to think about the possibility of one of us not surviving.
And so it's a hard conversation. And I think that. It's up to the family and the couple whether or not they that's definitely a personal decision about should we talk about this? We can encourage maybe part of the birthing plan is in emergency. sOme people have a DNR.
Yes. It may, this may be the time frame in an emergency. Okay. We don't want to focus on that but in an emergency. Yeah. tHat's interesting. Cause yeah, Jill, that, that was a great point. I remember she said that she had, she also said when she said that she created that plan for her partner to use because of the number of negative experiences that she had with healthcare providers prior to [00:49:00] being pregnant.
And she knew there was going to come a time where she wouldn't be able to advocate for herself. Very interesting. Similarly to that, I randomly, cause I go down the YouTube hole. I landed on a video for Shan Boodram. And I'm sure some of you out there may know who she is. I want to say she's like a sex and dating coach.
She's a woman of color, although not a black woman. And her partner seems to be a man of color, although I'm not sure of what ethnic background she mentioned. At one point, she was talking about her childbirth story where she had to be induced. I want to say she's Canadian. Don't quote me on that. But she talked about that she needed to be induced.
Because some of the terms she mentioned, I didn't hear surrounding childbirth and maternity in this country. So that's why. But she mentioned at some point, like she, her partner was like, Oh, she was having contractions and she felt like the baby was coming and they went to go call a [00:50:00] doctor or nurse.
And they were like, Oh there are a few other people who are in late stages of labor and are delivering. So we can't get to you right now. Try to hold on. And he was like, What do you mean? Hold on. And so he came back in the room and I think, I don't know if he said to her or she said to him I can't wait anymore.
He like went back out and talk about being an advocate. He was like, look, she, I'm going to tell her to push. She's going to push. If somebody wants to come in here and grab this baby, when it comes out, that's great. He's if not, we're going to figure it out and came back into the delivery room.
And he told her, and she was Okay. And then he said, thankfully someone came in after that. So I think about partners like that who are really able to be like, look, it's not the time for you to say, we don't have anybody to help you. Or this is what we're going to do. This is what we would want.
And how realistic is that anyway for expectant parents? You know what you want. And I know Sonora says this a lot, like she had her plan and her doctors were willing to go by her plan [00:51:00] until a point. How realistic is it for us to have a plan and have it be and expect that it is followed. So the stories that we heard on the panel that you guys had at Rowan was that they didn't, that the plan did get to a certain point or some of the young ladies were talking about they didn't follow the plan. And I guess they don't have to, they don't have to. So it's, I think those plans as a security and safety net for us and as part of advocacy on the behalf of our partner, something that happened, but I guess legally it's not a legally binding document.
I think that would be a good question to ask someone in the legal field. At what point do you force, how do you do that? I don't know. You're in a state where you can't. And if they don't allow a partner to, to speak for the mom, I don't know how much you can really push that.
I don't know how far into the pen [00:52:00] when things go in a way that needs some other level of intervention. What happens with that? That's a good question. Also, I wonder if it depends on the hospital, which is of the hospital, the doctor, your relationship with the doctor. Those might be outstanding factors that have to be considered.
Okay. aNother question that I, that just popped into my head. So I know many moms suffer from postpartum depression. And I know that's often tied to the fluctuation in hormones and a number of other things considering and I want to specifically talk about dads. So in heterosexual couples.
Dads who are the surviving partners, they clearly will not have postpartum depression, but they could be suffering from some type of depression linked to grief. Is that possible? Is it possible that they would what am I trying to say? Sometimes I've heard like moms who had postpartum depression, they tend to want to [00:53:00] distance themselves from the baby or not want to be around the baby.
Can that happen with Surviving dads and the baby because the mom is not there and there's some kind of resentment. And what are your, what would you suggest couples do? We're not couples, but in terms of survivors that they do to try to work through that. So I think there's a couple of factors like men are the virus and problem solvers.
They don't think a lot about emotional things like we do with women. They get in there and they take care of it. And I don't know if I would see them as necessarily struggling with the loss in that way. I think they are going to just get in there and do what they have to do to get things done. I do know that men, we know men and their emotions.
thAt is not something they are very comfortable with because of the way we've been socialized.
So we [00:54:00] do need to check in on them and make sure that we are aware whether or not they are at sometimes checking out, it could be sleeping longer and that means maybe the baby may be crying, they may be checking out a little bit more and more. So that's, I think some semblance of a postpartum if they're not wanting to get connected.
But I think it's more a reflection of their mental and emotional wellness. And I would also say it also, how stable were they before? So does the stress, now it's the stress of being the surviving partner and also taking care of an infant and not really having been prepared. Does this exacerbate something that was already there?
So I think there's never a one on one answer. It's always all these new waiting things that we have to consider. And we want men to just be we, I don't, I think we want to encourage them to let us know when [00:55:00] they need help. The problem is because they've been socialized not to do that. We have to look for changes in their mood changes in their level of involvement and engagement, which taking care of the baby, changes in all they're asking us to keep the baby more frequently, things like that.
We just have to make the connection and maybe connect the dots. If they're not openly saying, I don't think I can do this, okay. Wow. Yeah. That's super insightful. And I think it's helpful for those listening and even for Jill and I, if we know anyone at some point to be able to look for those signs that's really great.
Thank you so much. Dr. Clack. Just one last question. Do you have any closing thoughts or suggestions for anyone out there who may have experienced or know someone who's experienced pregnancy loss or maternal loss? I do. I think in the [00:56:00] beginning we were talking about what people can do and what they can say versus what they cannot.
The safest, I believe, the safest way to be supportive is to be present. You don't have to say a lot. You don't have to ask them what they need a lot. Just jump in and do. So if it's a surviving father and he already has one or two children and now he's the only one, I guarantee you he gets hungry. I feel like that's one thing Omari said he had his mother in law and, other family members who were bringing my food, checking on them.
So there was like a steady stream. So check on them, make sure they eat. That's it. It's winter time, drop off some gloves. Maybe he didn't think Oh, yeah, they do need a coat. It is getting cold. Things like, just things that we know intuitively that young people need and maybe dads might not because they're doing so much.
That [00:57:00] non pregnant partner, that surviving partner, is to think of the things that they might not think of. And just do it, because I guarantee you, if you say to them, can we help you, nine times out of ten, he's going to say, I got it. Yep. That's me. I feel like I'm a guy sometimes. I'm like, nah, I got it.
Regardless of what it is. Yeah. And looking around now. I'm going to put this baby in a cold car and go around the corner and get milk, call someone and say, do you mind running to the store and bring it? So sometimes we've got to just jump in there and and help people who normally would not ask.
Got it. Okay. So it's interesting. Because, you said something like women are used to, or I think we've been socialized to be like the default parent, that's what my ex and I would be like, I don't want to be the default parent today. And if he's you don't give me a chance. And I'm like she would never get to the doctor or get any of her like shots or anything.
But it's true. And I [00:58:00] don't know why, but that's a great point. That's not something that they prepared for. And so learning how to do that. So listeners, Dr. Clark has said, check on these men and surviving partners, make sure they're eating. I was going to ask one thing in regards to women who have suffered pregnancy loss.
Should there be a time limit on their grief process?
Absolutely not. No. Until. Until I would say, there's never a time limit on anyone's grief in terms of their grief journey. So if it takes me a year or whatever, if I've lost someone, I don't want someone to say, Oh, you should be over there by now. What I do want people to be aware of is when grief turns into a more complicated bereavement and depression.[00:59:00]
And so we see some serious, so someone could be grieving. And grieving is normal. We want people to grieve and to work through that. That's normal. And there's no time limit on that. However, if during the grieving process, someone is expressing suicidal ideation, where you see that they're not getting out of bed at all, they're not eating, there's a significant weight loss.
They have totally isolated. You come in the hospital, the windows are covered. Like when you see that it has become beyond grieving it into a clinical depression. Now, you're not a doctor, family member, so I know you can't. Say this is clinically concerning, when something is beyond what the person can manage all, then yes, we need to intervene, but when it comes to if it's a normal breathing.
There is no time limit on how long it takes someone to work through that, as long as they're getting support. That's [01:00:00] another thing. You want to make sure that they're getting support. Okay, so we want to support people, we want to make sure that they're eating, check on them sometimes don't ask, and just be there to help them through everything.
Dr. Clack. Thank you so much again. Can you please let our listeners know where to find you on social media? Sure. So my website is www. clackassociates. com. I'm primarily on Facebook. That's where my Thrive community is. And that's at ClackAndala. And then the same for IG. Those are the places I hang out.
Awesome. Thank you so much. We really appreciate you hanging out with us today and talking to us about pregnancy and maternal loss.
Thank you for listening to this episode of Maternal Health 911. Please follow the show on Instagram, Facebook, and [01:01:00] Twitter. Feel free to DM me with your questions and thoughts or to share your infertility, fertility, and maternal health story. For more information on this podcast and your host, Visit www.
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In this episode, we address the often silent struggles of maternal grief in the face of infertility and loss. Join our compassionate hosts as we engage in a heartfelt conversation with experts and individuals who have experienced the unique challenges of maternal grief in the context of infertility and death.
Our guests share personal stories and professional insights to shed light on the emotional toll of infertility and the heartbreaking reality of losing a child. We explore the complex journey of navigating motherhood when faced with the challenges of conception and the profound impact it has on individuals and couples.
Tune in as we discuss coping strategies, support systems, and the importance of breaking the stigma surrounding these sensitive topics. Whether you're on your own journey or looking to support a loved one, this episode aims to provide understanding, empathy, and a sense of community for those navigating the intricate landscape of maternal grief in infertility and loss.
Join us for a conversation that seeks to offer comfort, dispel isolation, and foster a deeper understanding of the silent struggles many face on the path to motherhood. You are not alone, and your story matters.
Guest Bio:
Dr. Clack is a licensed psychotherapist with over 25 years of experience. Dr. Clack treats adults and youth suffering from depression, anxiety, grief/loss, as well as general emotional distress and relationship/interpersonal problems. She also trains counselors, social workers, and related mental health professionals. Her approach to providing clinical care consists of teaching people to recognize unhealthy patterns in their thinking and behaviors that have resulted in poor emotional and behavioral functioning and choices. She has a particular interest and expertise in treating women and their secondary conditions to trauma, interpersonal/intrapersonal distress, physical health conditions/illnesses, and mood disturbances.
Dr. Clack also offers coaching, supervision, consultation, and program design and development. Through coaching/consultation, speaking engagements and as an author, Dr. Clack’s passion is to provide emotional support, education, information and inspiration to empower women who are experiencing emotional distress, feelings of low self-worth, and feeling “stuck” in their current life circumstances to rewrite their life story by embracing new possibilities and to discover and uncover qualities they never thought they had!
Books Co-written by Angela Clack
The Coaching Gurus is a co authored read by highly experienced coaches who have provided chapters on their specific areas of expertise including life, career, stress, transition, empowerment, and self esteem in women.
The Power Of God Daily Devotional is a 365 day scripture based devotional that provides women to daily encouragement, personal narratives and reflections that are associated with your daily time of prayer and meditation on God's word.
Breaking Free: Overcoming Self-Sabotage is a co-authored compilation that is a powerful must read book for women involving relationships, self awareness, building self-esteem, overcoming fear, and more.
Women of Color Talk: This book gives voice to women globally about the epidemic of depression and trauma women of color suffer in silence due to the continued stigma attached to seeking and receiving mental health treatment.
Learn more about Dr. Jill here
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